tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post1775470333768404265..comments2023-12-31T04:10:49.722-08:00Comments on Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo: The Book of JobUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger114125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-64256187707299722122011-03-12T02:21:33.089-08:002011-03-12T02:21:33.089-08:00@Revolutionaryandjoyful
this is eerily similar to...@Revolutionaryandjoyful<br /><br /><i>this is eerily similar to the abortion debate.</i><br /><br />Very true, R&J. I also see similarities to the atheist vs theist debate insofar that even most atheists hold on to "humanity must continue" attitudes at least as fervently as religious people - although for radically different reasons. Jim did an excellent job of skewering Richard Dawkins' almost quasi-religious praise of life. Classic read for this blog, I tell ya!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09630805408813112175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-74740669035761138482011-03-12T02:07:38.309-08:002011-03-12T02:07:38.309-08:00The reason pleasure doesn't really matter is t...The reason pleasure doesn't really matter is that non-existent people can't experience pleasure - or even anything at all! It's ultimately a neutral state at worst, and (if the person would have really disliked life in general or his/her life) very possibly a benefit.<br /><br />It all boils down to a person saying "the benefits of my life are not worth the inevitable bad points I have to put up with". Of course, there's a certain subjectivity to self-assessment - <i>which is precisely the point</i>. We have no right to determine another person's quality of life - at least from an attitude of finality.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09630805408813112175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-45213209278213281672011-03-11T09:27:34.968-08:002011-03-11T09:27:34.968-08:00this is eerily similar to the abortion debate.this is eerily similar to the abortion debate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-11983652451350886402011-03-11T01:25:08.844-08:002011-03-11T01:25:08.844-08:00In short, to do away with pain you would do away w...<i>In short, to do away with pain you would do away with pleasure?</i><br />In the context in which we have been discussing this, yes. Not in general. The context is, as Jim notes, one in which the pleasure does not have value (because there is no one to say "Hey! Gimme my pleasure damnit!").<br /><br />(I'll have to point out once more that you have "denied pleasure" to all those kids you could have had but didn't.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-14492312349054046482011-03-10T16:26:49.362-08:002011-03-10T16:26:49.362-08:00While it pains me to hear the rehashing of the sam...While it pains me to hear the rehashing of the same old non-arguments, it pleases me to note that the appearance of hungry trolls is probably indicative of the rising popularity of this blog. Of course, if the world weren't full of mrsneutronsgarages, there wouldn't be a need for this blog in the first place. So... back to square one.CMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-7544593378134463872011-03-10T15:52:52.222-08:002011-03-10T15:52:52.222-08:00mrsneutronsgarage:
"Simple question.
In shor...mrsneutronsgarage:<br /><br />"Simple question.<br />In short, to do away with pain you would do away with pleasure?"<br /><br />Since we're talking about a pleasure of which no one will actually be deprived, I answer with an unqualified YES.<br /><br />Here's a simple question for you:<br /><br />You would affirm a process by which some people will suffer terribly, so that others may flourish?metamorphhhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12754527748086296743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-1711191602164034792011-03-10T14:54:17.492-08:002011-03-10T14:54:17.492-08:00Simple question.
In short, to do away with pain yo...Simple question.<br />In short, to do away with pain you would do away with pleasure?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-68166967917681358112011-03-10T14:24:51.560-08:002011-03-10T14:24:51.560-08:00You would, if you could, have denied me my happine...<i>You would, if you could, have denied me my happiness and right to live.</i><br />Are you feeling comfortable having denied all of those kids you could have had but didn't their happiness and right to live?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-66549518447641395332011-03-10T13:42:15.045-08:002011-03-10T13:42:15.045-08:00Given Mrsneutron already brought up (implicitly) t...Given Mrsneutron already brought up (implicitly) the "antinatalists are existential weaklings" argument, I'll go straight to the source<br /><br />Tell me why a nonexistent person HAS to be forced into life when there's clearly no need for IT to come into existence (given the nonexistent have no needs, desires, or anything else needing fulfilling? This is especially true if we're going to die one day anyway. <br /><br />Special Addition for religious oriented people: Even if we do manage to take our memories with us, is it really worth it if a substantial proportion of your descendants end up in eternal torment?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09630805408813112175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-1149047030365530612011-03-10T11:25:44.804-08:002011-03-10T11:25:44.804-08:00I just posted a few comments I found in the spam f...I just posted a few comments I found in the spam filter. Sorry about that :(metamorphhhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12754527748086296743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-1420196901907462132011-03-10T10:37:25.520-08:002011-03-10T10:37:25.520-08:00Thanks Meta.
In short, to do away with pain you w...Thanks Meta.<br /><br />In short, to do away with pain you would do away with pleasure?<br /><br />..."I COULD say this without sounding offensive, but I choose not to (which is most likely the case with you, as well)..." No, it's not. If I wished to sound offensive, I know how.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-6452807508626926632011-03-10T09:59:04.482-08:002011-03-10T09:59:04.482-08:00Whoops, looks like Tim went and stole my thunder :...Whoops, looks like Tim went and stole my thunder :)<br /><br />Once again, I see MrsN has used that phrase 'denied ME MY happiness' as if he could have been denied anything when he didn't as yet exist. I guess I can do some short deconstructions to add to Tim's points:<br /><br />"Everybody can't win the race, so, the race shouldn't ever be run."<br /><br />Life isn't a race. There's no trophy at the end, only a grave. And, unfortunately, everyone is drafted into this erroneously called 'race' without consent. Along the way, some learn to tolerate the conditions, ofttimes by telling themselves lies that there IS a trophy to be had at the end. And when they see their brothers and sisters falling down in the mud, they rationalize it by telling themselves "Ah, well, where there are winners, there must be losers. C'est la vie. At least I'm having fun!"<br /><br />"The nature of the universe is not to your liking, so, nobody should be born."<br /><br />No, the nature of the universe is capricious, and we have no right nor good reason to cast others into the jaws of a fate not under our control.<br /><br />'Jeepers! I'm not happy, so, happiness is not possible.'<br /><br />No, It's possible that the child I bring into this world may not be happy, so why take the risk knowing that in their present state of -non-existence, they're not feeling deprived of anything at all?<br /><br />'I don't deny suffering, but, you would deny happiness because suffering exists too.'<br /><br />No, happiness and suffering both exist. Unfortunately, there will be many instances where suffering gets the upper hand, and we have very little control in the matter. Let's set up an imaginary scenario where for each group of 100 children, 90 get to go to Disneyland while 10 are severely beaten. So, do we cancel the trip to Disneyland in order to avoid the beatings? Your call.<br /><br />'I don't know how to say this without sounding offensive, but to me.... that's creepy. Sorry.'<br /><br />I COULD say this without sounding offensive, but I choose not to (which is most likely the case with you, as well)...your argumentation sucks.metamorphhhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12754527748086296743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-64704526539236082862011-03-10T09:30:20.217-08:002011-03-10T09:30:20.217-08:00mrsneutronsgarage:
"Because I "might&qu...mrsneutronsgarage:<br /><br />"Because I "might" have ended up like you would you feel comfortable denying me life?"<br /><br />No one who has not yet been born has ever been denied anything. If you had never been born, you would occupy the very same position of all the potential progeny of yours that you never created. Do you feel bad about that? Do you feel that in not breeding at every single opportunity that you've robbed all those could-have-beens of precious opportunities? <br /><br />In that light, I feel VERY comfortable in not creating more life that will suffer, than has the potential to experience GREAT suffering, and all for the opportunity of going right back to where it came from i.e. non-existence. <br /><br />"You have a choice to be done with your life or continue to bitch about how awful it is. You have a choice not to reproduce, BUT, you don't have the choice to "assume" that anyone born would share your opinion. I don't!"<br /><br />And yet, you seem to feel that you have the choice to 'assume' that anyone born will share YOUR opinion. And if they don't? Oh, well, they can always go kill themselves. That you end your statement with "I don't" once again demonstrates your unwillingness to see the bigger picture here. You always keep coming back to "don't rain on MY parade!" <br /><br />Here's the deal, as simply as I can state it. The unborn can experience neither joy nor sorrow. But the denial of joy in this case is meaningless, since there is no experience of deprivation, as there is in life. <br /><br />However, when we bring a new life into the world, we are taking the chance that this life will experience great suffering, not to mention certain death. Furthermore, since this life's previous state of non-existence was one of zero deprivation, what was the reason for creating the life in the first place, beyond a purely a selfish one? <br /><br />We like to justify our actions in this arena by using euphemisms, like when we call breeding 'giving the gift of life'. But in reality, there was no gift, for there was no one to receive that gift. To have a child is to give a gift to ourselves, and then pretend we were actually doing something nice for SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T EVEN EXIST. <br /><br />In the end, procreation is a thoroughly selfish act, and even though you've been fortunate enough (so far) to not regret your life, your attitude isn't the universal template, believe it or not. Procreation is wrong because it is an unnecessary risk with a life not your own, committed without consent.metamorphhhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12754527748086296743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-87476413303329683592011-03-10T09:15:13.119-08:002011-03-10T09:15:13.119-08:00Tim... I'm not interested in convincing you of...Tim... I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. I think, at least from your point of view, I have been answered.<br /> You would, if you could, have denied me my happiness and right to live.<br /><br />as far as...<br />1. Suffering is bad.<br />2. Bad things should be avoided.<br />3. By 1 and 2, suffering should be avoided.<br /><br />That's just another kind of "white must win" game. <br /><br />Everybody can't win the race, so, the race shouldn't ever be run. The nature of the universe is not to your liking, so, nobody should be born. Jeepers! I'm not happy, so, happiness is not possible. I don't deny suffering, but, you would deny happiness because suffering exists too. I don't know how to say this without sounding offensive, but to me.... that's creepy. Sorry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-25255740391579390652011-03-10T09:08:11.898-08:002011-03-10T09:08:11.898-08:00Sorry, that should have read "There is no one...Sorry, that should have read "There is no one to <em>feel</em> deprived".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-87872596222461995122011-03-10T09:06:05.739-08:002011-03-10T09:06:05.739-08:00This is probably THE messy question, but, am I cor...<i>This is probably THE messy question, but, am I correct in assuming you feel justified in seeing to it that people (like me) with the potential of enjoying life with all its horrors shouldn't be born because they just may turn out, instead, to have your point of view? Because I "might" have ended up like you would you feel comfortable denying me life?</i><br />Are you feeling comfortable having denied all of those kids you could have had but didn't life?<br /><br />No one is being denied life, and even if you insist that someone is, then whoever it is that is being denied life is not sitting in some waiting room suffering under this denial. There is no one to be deprived.<br /><br />(I'm glad you finally uncovered the point where you disagree with antinatalism.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-7996984017298461042011-03-10T08:56:22.914-08:002011-03-10T08:56:22.914-08:00(Gah, finally figured out I had to break this post...(Gah, finally figured out I had to break this post up to satisfy motherfucking Google's mystery machine.)<br /><br /><i>The fact that I DO enjoy my life in spite of the rules you find so objectionable seems proof to me that, if you had your way, others like myself would never be "permitted" that enjoyment.</i><br />This does not follow at all, and it is likely that your conclusion is in fact false. Stop making irrelevant accusations based on nothing.<br /><br /><i>You have a choice not to reproduce, BUT, you don't have the choice to "assume" that anyone born would share your opinion.</i><br />But apparently YOU had the choice to assume that not a single one of your kids and grandkids and great-grandkids and so on and so forth would hate life? Suppose one of your kids did hate life. What would be your response to them?<br /><br />Anyway, this discussion is pointless. Your position is vague, and you have not provided any clarification, not even when specifically asked.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-43999432003317631402011-03-10T08:54:48.351-08:002011-03-10T08:54:48.351-08:00Well, apparently, THAT is a matter of taste. I loo...<i>Well, apparently, THAT is a matter of taste. I look at my garden, children, grandchildren, friends... and KNOW that it all must pass...know everything will die and STILL find it magnificent.</i><br />But do you think so DESPITE this or BECAUSE OF this? Your words suggest DESPITE, which would imply that you feel an aversion to those things. Surely it would be a good thing to avoid these things?<br /><br /><i>In the end I don't see how any of us can claim we are "right"...</i><br />And yet, every day of your life, you make decisions based on the assumption that you are "right" and we are "wrong". Now, instead of making vague all-encompassing God-of-the-gaps arguments, how about you tell me what specifically is wrong about the following argument:<br /> 1. Suffering is bad.<br /> 2. Bad things should be avoided.<br /> 3. By 1 and 2, suffering should be avoided.<br />Until you offer a convincing argument why either or both of 1 and 2 are false, I will consider this "right" and your as yet unspecified (let alone supported with arguments) position "wrong".<br /><br /><i>It MOST CERTAINLY IS!</i><br />Individuals may have reasons, but life does not.<br /><br /><i>I'm sorry you are having such a horrible time in this universe.</i><br />Do you still beat your wife? Are you ever going to stop these childish games and instead actually engage what is being said? Do you understand what the Plague Doctor meant by "who before had no need for mud"? I for one have recently played in mud and I had a splendid time (I doubt you have, just as I doubt that you have every slipped a fart cushion on the mayor's chair). But take away my history and it would have meant absolutely nothing to me. So it is with "the unborn". There is nothing at all wrong about withholding life from "the unborn", just as there is nothing wrong about denying me a chance to play in the mud unless I have all this personal baggage with me that makes it something I want to do. The unborn have no need for a life that may or may not turn out "just fine", and they won't miss it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-30420791931398756522011-03-10T08:05:53.786-08:002011-03-10T08:05:53.786-08:00[It appears my comment is not coming through, so o...[It appears my comment is not coming through, so one more try.]<br /><br />This will be my last reply in this pointless discussion, as mrsneutronsgarage is blatantly ignoring all the points I make and questions I ask.<br /><br /><i>I'm sorry you are having such a horrible time in this universe. </i><br /><br />Stop making assumptions about me (or anyone else). You know absolutely nothing about my life, and your psychoanalysis of me is irrelevant to the argument.<br /><br /><i>Perhaps it's natural for you to resent those who are enjoying themselves. Perhaps you can't help yourself.</i><br /><br />I do not resent anyone their (innocent) enjoyment. Stop making assumptions about me.<br /><br /><i>The fact that I DO enjoy my life in spite of the rules you find so objectionable seems proof to me that, if you had your way, others like myself would never be "permitted" that enjoyment.</i><br /><br />I would never prohibit someone's (innocent) enjoyment. Stop making assumptions about me.<br /><br /><i>You have a choice to be done with your life or continue to bitch about how awful it is.</i><br /><br />This is the same "choice" a mugger gives, who says "Your money or your life!".<br /><br /><i>You have a choice not to reproduce, BUT, you don't have the choice to "assume" that anyone born would share your opinion. I don't!</i><br /><br />You are the one who is making all kinds of <a href="http://theviewfromhell.blogspot.com/2010/12/is-antinatalism-illiberal.html" rel="nofollow">assumptions on behalf of others</a>.<br /><br />This is as good an occasion as any to mention my and Karl's favorite inmendham video: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXUNTxJ48YM" rel="nofollow">(part 1)</a> <a href="http://blip.tv/file/4200058" rel="nofollow">(part 2)</a>.The Plague Doctornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-68956092280684775782011-03-10T08:04:02.101-08:002011-03-10T08:04:02.101-08:00Well Josep, at least you didn't call me a swin...Well Josep, at least you didn't call me a swine.<br /><br />This is probably THE messy question, but, am I correct in assuming you feel justified in seeing to it that people (like me) with the potential of enjoying life with all its horrors shouldn't be born because they just may turn out, instead, to have your point of view? Because I "might" have ended up like you would you feel comfortable denying me life?<br /><br />If this turns out to be more genetic than environmental will you be content to go the way of the Shakers, or, would you be happier to, if you were capable, end all sentient life?<br /><br />If this turns out to be more environmental can you conceive of a "different" kind of environment producing a different kind of you? Or, for that matter, treatment options? Note: I have no wish to insult you with that last question, I don't consider philosophy a disease.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-57472832914054065792011-03-10T07:42:08.483-08:002011-03-10T07:42:08.483-08:00"We are just who we are... a product of genes..."We are just who we are... a product of genes and environment. What else could account for the differences?"<br /><br />At last we speak the same language, mrsneutronsgarage. In the end, everything is coarsely material, shallow and un-poetic. Where is the poetry of Alzheimer? And the music of cancer? The baby who wets himself in its cradle is the nonagenarian who'll wet himself in a geriatric home. I find it very easy to look into the future, and what I see doesen't smell of roses, it stinks of shit, the shit of all of us, the poetically incontinents who were brought into this wonderful world of war, misery and death.Josepnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-29653417236090559302011-03-10T07:19:39.455-08:002011-03-10T07:19:39.455-08:00This is my last comment in this pointless discussi...This is my last comment in this pointless discussion as mrsneutronsgarage blatantly ignores all the points I make and questions I ask.<br /><br /><i>I'm sorry you are having such a horrible time in this universe.</i><br /><br />Stop making assumptions about me (or anyone else). You know nothing about my life, and it is irrelevant to this discussion.<br /><br /><i>Perhaps it's natural for you to resent those who are enjoying themselves. Perhaps you can't help yourself. </i><br /><br />I do not resent anyone's (innocent) enjoyment. Stop making assumptions about me. <br /><br /><i>The fact that I DO enjoy my life in spite of the rules you find so objectionable seems proof to me that, if you had your way, others like myself would never be "permitted" that enjoyment.</i><br /><br />I would never prohibit someone else's (innocent) enjoyment. Stop making assumptions about me. <br /><br /><i>You have a choice to be done with your life or continue to bitch about how awful it is.</i><br /><br />This is the same "choice" a mugger gives who says "Your money or your life."<br /><br /><i>You have a choice not to reproduce, BUT, you don't have the choice to "assume" that anyone born would share your opinion.</i><br /><br />You are the one who is making all kinds of <a href="http://theviewfromhell.blogspot.com/2010/12/is-antinatalism-illiberal.html" rel="nofollow">assumptions on behalf of others</a>.<br /><br />This is as good an occasion as any to mention my and Karl's favorite inmendham video: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXUNTxJ48YM" rel="nofollow">(part 1)</a> <a href="http://blip.tv/file/4200058" rel="nofollow">(part 2)</a>.The Plague Doctornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-25365650226499938312011-03-10T07:06:50.536-08:002011-03-10T07:06:50.536-08:00This will be my last reply in pointless discussion...This will be my last reply in pointless discussion, as mrsneutronsgarage blantanly ignores all the points I make and questions I ask.<br /><br /><i>I'm sorry you are having such a horrible time in this universe.</i><br /><br />STOP making assumptions about my (or anyone else's) life.<br /><br /><i>Perhaps it's natural for you to resent those who are enjoying themselves. Perhaps you can't help yourself. </i><br /><br />I do not resent anyone; STOP making assumptions about me.<br /><br /><i>The fact that I DO enjoy my life in spite of the rules you find so objectionable seems proof to me that, if you had your way, others like myself would never be "permitted" that enjoyment.</i><br /><br />I do would never prohibit anyone's enjoyment; STOP making assumptions about me.<br /><br /><i>You have a choice to be done with your life or continue to bitch about how awful it is. </i><br /><br />This is the same "choice" given by a mugger who says "your money or your life!".<br /> <br /><i>you don't have the choice to "assume" that anyone born would share your opinion. I don't!</i><br /><br />You are the one <a href="http://theviewfromhell.blogspot.com/2010/12/is-antinatalism-illiberal.html" rel="nofollow">who is making all kinds of assumptions on behalf of others</a>. <br /><br />This is as good a place as any to mention mine and Karl's favorite inmendham video: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXUNTxJ48YM" rel="nofollow">(part 1)</a> <a href="http://blip.tv/file/4200058" rel="nofollow">(part 2)</a>.The Plague Doctornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-58782461708932434762011-03-10T06:46:12.621-08:002011-03-10T06:46:12.621-08:00The PD drops me an ever so nice reply..
..."...The PD drops me an ever so nice reply..<br /><br />..."I am sure you enjoy tolling around in your mud puddle, which confirms that you are indeed a swine, but how does your enjoyment justify throwing other people into the mud, who before had no need for mud, did not ask to be thrown into the mud, and may not have wanted to be thrown into the mud?"..<br /><br />I'm sorry you are having such a horrible time in this universe. Perhaps it's natural for you to resent those who are enjoying themselves. Perhaps you can't help yourself. The fact that I DO enjoy my life in spite of the rules you find so objectionable seems proof to me that, if you had your way, others like myself would never be "permitted" that enjoyment. <br /> You have a choice to be done with your life or continue to bitch about how awful it is. You have a choice not to reproduce, BUT, you don't have the choice to "assume" that anyone born would share your opinion. I don't! <br /> I also don't think calling you names will accomplish anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-354069516366024003.post-72266758089954962622011-03-10T06:10:23.916-08:002011-03-10T06:10:23.916-08:00mrsneutronsgarage reminds me of St. Anselm's f...mrsneutronsgarage reminds me of St. Anselm's famous proof of the existence of God: "I woke up with a boner this morning; therefore God exists! QED" (The original is in Latin of course.) mrsneutronsgarage apparently still erroneously believes that if <i>HE PERSONALLY</i> has been able to have a happy life, this somehow proves anything about anything. I am sure you enjoy tolling around in your mud puddle, which confirms that you are indeed a swine, but how does your enjoyment justify throwing <i>other people</i> into the mud, who before had <i>no need</i> for mud, did not ask to be thrown into the mud, and may not have wanted to be thrown into the mud?The Plague Doctornoreply@blogger.com