I thought this was worth moving up from the comments section...
Hello everyone again. I'm sorry, I forgot to actually put the link of the antinatalism philosophy thread. Here it is:http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/why-we-work-33561.htmlIf anyone would like to add their thoughts, opinions, arguments, or responses to this thread, it would be greatly appreciated. This is a thread a created on a philosophy forum. It has gotten a lot of responses. I essentially proposed that it is immoral to procreate. There is a lot of opponents and some advocates; both sides giving their reasoning behind why they agree or disagree. If someone from this blog has already responded and given their input, thank you, it is much appreciated. If you haven't checked it out, I implore you to go on there and look at some of the comments made and give a good argument for the antinatalist cause. You have to register on the forum first with a username and password. But once you do that you can comment on any of the threads.
Thursday, April 9, 2009
Sunday, April 5, 2009
Suicide Ponderings
I was doing some reading about suicide this afternoon, and came across this screed over at suicide.org-
Suicide is Never an Option
by Kevin Caruso
I have talked with several suicidal people who have said something like this: "If things don't work out I can always kill myself. I always have that option."
Suicide is not an option. And the type of mindset that accompanies this type of statement needs to be changed immediately.
People who make that type of statement would never say: "If so-and-so doesn't shape up, I'll just kill him. I always have that option." Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? So, why is it so easy for some people to believe that taking their own life is okay? That suicide is an option?
Because of a mental disorder--People with depression, or a similar disorder, cannot think straight because they have a chemical imbalance in their brain. And almost everyone who is suicidal has a mental disorder.
So it is critical that people get treatment so their thinking will change.
If you need help because you have a similar mindset, then get help now.
Do not delay.
Take a step back and analyze your thinking. What is really going on in your mind? What kind of self-talk do you engage in?
Do you say to yourself: "Suicide is always an option"? or "I can always kill myself if I need to"? or "If things don't get better, I'll kill myself"?
If your thinking is even close to that, then please get help. Call 1-800-SUICUDE now if you need to. The sooner you get help, the better.
Be honest with yourself. If you need help, get it. And get it now.
And remember that suicide is never, under any circumstances, an option.
Note the blatantly paternalistic assertions based on...what? Personal preference? Cultural indoctrination? Unconsidered presuppositionalism? God’s moving finger? And what’s with the 1-800-SUICUDE? LOL! Anyhow, all this got me to thinking- since we’re all destined to die anyway, what’s all the fuss? Why is tomorrow better than today, or next year better than next week? Isn’t an appropriate analogy one where we’ve been pushed out of an airplane, and are being impassionately admonished to flap our arms until we hit the ground? What is there, if anything, that sets this attitude apart from fundamental denialism? Oh, and I love the way the guy equates suicide with murder! One can only wonder if he typed this with a straight face.
Of course, there IS the argument that our deaths cause others to suffer, but that’s the case regardless of WHEN we die. I suppose it could be argued that it’s worse if young children are involved, but that’s only saying that death stings less the more people grow inured to the realities of life, and what does THAT say about the realities of life? Isn’t this just another justification for suicide? There’s the matter of foisting the ‘suicide stigma’ upon surviving loved ones; but again, isn’t that stigma a result of societal reinforcement, making the negative attitude towards suicide the real perversity, and not the suicide itself? It all seems twisted somehow, an attempt to displace our own selfishness, and to anchor it to the object of our selfishness. And there’s this whole air of self-righteousness about the matter, as if delaying the inevitable amounts to the fulfillment of some holy mandate...all done for the potential suicide’s own good, of course. And if that potential suicide goes on to live another 3 or 4 or 5 decades in misery, why, it’s just a work in progress, is all, because NOTHING is worse than suicide, because...well...well...because there’s always hope, and death never solves anything. Well, until it comes, and it does solve everything. At least, it solves everything for the one who dies. And we all die. Every fucking one of us.
Of course, solutions are only necessary as far as problems are concerned. When life ends, the need for solutions vanishes. And if we stopped bringing life into the world, we’d never need those solutions in the first place. Life is like an unhealable wound that just keeps bleeding, and bleeding, and bleeding, but we’re too stupid, or stubborn, or afraid to stop administering transfusions, though all of us know we’re dealing with an ultimately hopeless case. Because it’s all about us, you see, our own fears of mortality, and the way we fend it off through fantasies of vicarious continuity through succeeding generations of little girls and boys, to whom we teach the very same lesson. It’ll be alright. Everything works out for the best. The sun’ll come out tomorrow. And my personal favorite, we’re all God’s chilluns. What a royal crock of shit.
P.S. I ESPECIALLY love the assertion that suicidal thoughts are always the result of some kind of mental disorder. Couldn't it be just as possible that depression is often the result of too much truth burning out the coping mechanisms that keep the wheels turning? I've written about some of this here.
P.S.S. You know, this suicide.org guy is really starting to piss me off. After equating thoughts of suicide with thoughts of murder, he goes on in another place to assure us that suicide is nothing like murder. I often run into this sort of compartmentalized thinking with religious apologists. Offer whatever answer happens to fit a particular situation, or discussion, and to hell with consistency or a coherent philosophical position. There should be a name for this sort of thing. How's 'situational pontification' sound?
Suicide is Never an Option
by Kevin Caruso
I have talked with several suicidal people who have said something like this: "If things don't work out I can always kill myself. I always have that option."
Suicide is not an option. And the type of mindset that accompanies this type of statement needs to be changed immediately.
People who make that type of statement would never say: "If so-and-so doesn't shape up, I'll just kill him. I always have that option." Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? So, why is it so easy for some people to believe that taking their own life is okay? That suicide is an option?
Because of a mental disorder--People with depression, or a similar disorder, cannot think straight because they have a chemical imbalance in their brain. And almost everyone who is suicidal has a mental disorder.
So it is critical that people get treatment so their thinking will change.
If you need help because you have a similar mindset, then get help now.
Do not delay.
Take a step back and analyze your thinking. What is really going on in your mind? What kind of self-talk do you engage in?
Do you say to yourself: "Suicide is always an option"? or "I can always kill myself if I need to"? or "If things don't get better, I'll kill myself"?
If your thinking is even close to that, then please get help. Call 1-800-SUICUDE now if you need to. The sooner you get help, the better.
Be honest with yourself. If you need help, get it. And get it now.
And remember that suicide is never, under any circumstances, an option.
Note the blatantly paternalistic assertions based on...what? Personal preference? Cultural indoctrination? Unconsidered presuppositionalism? God’s moving finger? And what’s with the 1-800-SUICUDE? LOL! Anyhow, all this got me to thinking- since we’re all destined to die anyway, what’s all the fuss? Why is tomorrow better than today, or next year better than next week? Isn’t an appropriate analogy one where we’ve been pushed out of an airplane, and are being impassionately admonished to flap our arms until we hit the ground? What is there, if anything, that sets this attitude apart from fundamental denialism? Oh, and I love the way the guy equates suicide with murder! One can only wonder if he typed this with a straight face.
Of course, there IS the argument that our deaths cause others to suffer, but that’s the case regardless of WHEN we die. I suppose it could be argued that it’s worse if young children are involved, but that’s only saying that death stings less the more people grow inured to the realities of life, and what does THAT say about the realities of life? Isn’t this just another justification for suicide? There’s the matter of foisting the ‘suicide stigma’ upon surviving loved ones; but again, isn’t that stigma a result of societal reinforcement, making the negative attitude towards suicide the real perversity, and not the suicide itself? It all seems twisted somehow, an attempt to displace our own selfishness, and to anchor it to the object of our selfishness. And there’s this whole air of self-righteousness about the matter, as if delaying the inevitable amounts to the fulfillment of some holy mandate...all done for the potential suicide’s own good, of course. And if that potential suicide goes on to live another 3 or 4 or 5 decades in misery, why, it’s just a work in progress, is all, because NOTHING is worse than suicide, because...well...well...because there’s always hope, and death never solves anything. Well, until it comes, and it does solve everything. At least, it solves everything for the one who dies. And we all die. Every fucking one of us.
Of course, solutions are only necessary as far as problems are concerned. When life ends, the need for solutions vanishes. And if we stopped bringing life into the world, we’d never need those solutions in the first place. Life is like an unhealable wound that just keeps bleeding, and bleeding, and bleeding, but we’re too stupid, or stubborn, or afraid to stop administering transfusions, though all of us know we’re dealing with an ultimately hopeless case. Because it’s all about us, you see, our own fears of mortality, and the way we fend it off through fantasies of vicarious continuity through succeeding generations of little girls and boys, to whom we teach the very same lesson. It’ll be alright. Everything works out for the best. The sun’ll come out tomorrow. And my personal favorite, we’re all God’s chilluns. What a royal crock of shit.
P.S. I ESPECIALLY love the assertion that suicidal thoughts are always the result of some kind of mental disorder. Couldn't it be just as possible that depression is often the result of too much truth burning out the coping mechanisms that keep the wheels turning? I've written about some of this here.
P.S.S. You know, this suicide.org guy is really starting to piss me off. After equating thoughts of suicide with thoughts of murder, he goes on in another place to assure us that suicide is nothing like murder. I often run into this sort of compartmentalized thinking with religious apologists. Offer whatever answer happens to fit a particular situation, or discussion, and to hell with consistency or a coherent philosophical position. There should be a name for this sort of thing. How's 'situational pontification' sound?
Thursday, April 2, 2009
Who May Be Sterlized?
Here's an interesting thread concerning the unwillingness of some in the medical establishment to perform voluntary sterilization on childless women (and in some cases, men). Here's a sample comment-
I have been arguing for years that I never want children and it took me threatening to do self surgery with “a kitchen knife and a copy of Grey’s anatomy” to finally get referred to an OB. And then I had some anti-choicer offer to ‘adopt’ if anything happens between now and my waiting list. I assured her that there was no way I was giving birth by any means necessary, be it a clinic, a coat hanger or a jump in front of a fast moving train. I also reminded another anti-choicer that by getting my tubes tied I could suffer a tubal pregnancy that will kill me and thereby made every possible pregnancy a life threatening one just to make damn sure I will have it terminated. What sort of society makes you have to threaten yourself with self-mutilation and possible death because you choose not to have children?
It seems the issue also extends into the right to have IUDs implanted. Think about it- these are adults in their twenties and thirties being denied contraception based on a naive pronatalist notion that someday they'll 'come around to the right way of thinking'. Societal paternalism runs deep.
It's also interesting to note how many women reject the idea of the so-called 'nurturing instinct', at least as a universal female attribute. Makes one wonder how much is simply culturally ingrained mythology, doesn't it?
I have been arguing for years that I never want children and it took me threatening to do self surgery with “a kitchen knife and a copy of Grey’s anatomy” to finally get referred to an OB. And then I had some anti-choicer offer to ‘adopt’ if anything happens between now and my waiting list. I assured her that there was no way I was giving birth by any means necessary, be it a clinic, a coat hanger or a jump in front of a fast moving train. I also reminded another anti-choicer that by getting my tubes tied I could suffer a tubal pregnancy that will kill me and thereby made every possible pregnancy a life threatening one just to make damn sure I will have it terminated. What sort of society makes you have to threaten yourself with self-mutilation and possible death because you choose not to have children?
It seems the issue also extends into the right to have IUDs implanted. Think about it- these are adults in their twenties and thirties being denied contraception based on a naive pronatalist notion that someday they'll 'come around to the right way of thinking'. Societal paternalism runs deep.
It's also interesting to note how many women reject the idea of the so-called 'nurturing instinct', at least as a universal female attribute. Makes one wonder how much is simply culturally ingrained mythology, doesn't it?
Monday, March 23, 2009
Thursday, March 19, 2009
Better Never To Have Mentioned...
Here's some interesting commentary on one blogger's encounter with David Benatar's 'Better Never To Have Been', and the subsequent visceral reactions of those he tried to discuss the book with. Not surprising; once I saw a reviewer actually suggest not opening the book, I knew it would be an uphill battle. Meanwhile, suffering and death continue, unabated.
And this from another article by the same blogger:
I'll tell you what's depressing: that social and psychological urge that compels us to deny our own states of pain and suffering, to pretend in some asinine charade that happiness is the default state of human existence. There is no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. It's the most widespread illogical assumption among contemporary Americans, more pervasive even than the existence of God. Benatar deals with this delusion extensively in one chapter of his book, citing a multitude of psychological studies that suggest the happiest people are those least in touch with the reality of their own lives and prospects.
And this from another article by the same blogger:
I'll tell you what's depressing: that social and psychological urge that compels us to deny our own states of pain and suffering, to pretend in some asinine charade that happiness is the default state of human existence. There is no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. It's the most widespread illogical assumption among contemporary Americans, more pervasive even than the existence of God. Benatar deals with this delusion extensively in one chapter of his book, citing a multitude of psychological studies that suggest the happiest people are those least in touch with the reality of their own lives and prospects.
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
Video Commentary
Thursday, March 5, 2009
David Benatar Radio Interview
To listen, go here. All in all, a very fair interview, I thought. Near the end, the interviewer remarks on the surprising number of emails sympathetic to Benatar's position. This further supports my belief that the inherent logic of the argument strikes a chord with more people than one might imagine, given the sometimes vociferous reactions issuing from the pro-natalist camp. As with religion, I think there are lots of people who passively accept the culturally embedded notion that 'the species must endure', simply because they've never been exposed to a coherent expression of the alternative. But once they hear it, bells go off. Seems promising.
Thanks to Chip for the ref.
Thanks to Chip for the ref.
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